Friday, 14 January 2011

Post Criticism

Unlike Black Hats would like you to believe, we, in this blog, do like to be questioned.

Valid criticism is always welcome, as it tests our understanding of things and provides a golden opportunity to change our vision on whatever subject is being subjected to it.

Also allows for us to consubstantiate our opinions, to and correct what is to be corrected, maintain what is not. The permanent and continuous testing of our beliefs is of the utmost importance, and that is only achieved by challenging them, which in this case, is obtained by criticism.

Done by oneself certainly, but also expected from you.

I found a comment, posted by docmac, in a thread at MMF, dedicated to the post superbly written by Sina J, “Hobie or not be? That is the question”.

As I thought that it raised some interesting points, I decided to give Sina J, an opportunity to respond. This is the comment:  

"Re: Hobie or not to be? That is the question/textusa  

docmac Wed 12 Jan at 10:44 pm 

I enjoy reading much of textusa's stuff. She certainly has an analytical mind and an eye for detail. However, there are inconsistencies in this article and the writer has obviously not fully read the rogatory interviews - Matt Oldfield's in particular. Below are but a few examples. 

Please do not view this as a criticism of textusa in this instance, as the article was not in fact written by her - the name of the author is quite clearly displayed at the top of the article, and textusa thanks the poster for her guest post in the first reply. 

First of all, reference is made to the doctors supposedly not referring to the type of craft used, specifically questioning whether they were 'Hobies' or 'Lasers'.  

“The Laser Pico is designed for simplicity and can be crewed by 2 children or 1 adult so we can assume this is not the craft the doctors had an incident with. So we are left with the Hobie, which is the craft for an experienced sailor and novice crew. In that case, it would be said “we took out a Hobie or even Hobie cat” but the doctors tell us they ‘did watersports’. Rather vague don’t you think?.” 

In fact Matt - the only experienced sailor in the group - does exactly this: “...they've got some (inaudible) cats, which are, erm, sort of sixteen foot long, but you ideally need, certainly in a breeze, you need two people to weight them down or they tend to turn over, so I'd always been trying to get him out on one of those and he sort of agreed to, erm, and he didn't have confidence in my sailing abilities, but, erm, he agreed to come on one of those and there was enough wind that lunchtime to actually do it. And so we went back down to the beach and took one of the cats out...” 

That sounds very much like a Hobie16 catamaran to me. May be wrong, but I doubt it. Next we see doubts expressed as to the following part of Dianne Webster's statement: “Dave I know was windsurfing in the afternoon, I’ve just got a picture of him walking out of the sea in his wetsuit.” 

The author wonders where this picture of David Payne might be. I believe 'picture' was used in a more figurative sense her, i.e. that she could still 'picture' him entering the water. The author further wonders what happened to the wetsuits:  

“according to Dianne, they go down to the beach, play around, Dianne takes pictures of David and of Russell and Matthew all in wetsuits, then the men come from the activities and all head for the Paraiso for high tea. When does the WET/DRY/CHANGE OF CLOTHES happen in this fairytale?”

 Again, in Matt's rogatory interview, he states: “Erm, by the time we'd got back in the, erm, the rest of the families were down on the beach, apart from Gerry and Kate and their kids, so it was Dave and Fiona and L*** and S******, erm, and Jane and E*** and E*** and they were playing on the beach. And so we sort of put the boat away, got changed and came over to them” 

Again, the writer states:  

“It’s typical of sports enthusiasts to use the terminology of their sport and the onlookers not to do that. None of the doctors name any of the craft they have purported to sail….why would that be? None of them mention going back to the apartment, having a shower or changing out of wetsuits, or puting away the wet kit in their statements”  

There are so many inconsistencies and lies to be found in the statements of this lot that it is often tempting to rush headlong into making assumptions after reading but a tiny extract of them. I've done this myself - hand on heart - but have always been ready to acknowledge that a mistake may have or has been made. This appears to me to be the case here."

Here is Sina J's response:

Dear Docmac,

You refer in your comment that I’ve some inconsistencies in my post. You may have found more, but you only refer three. First, the sailing experience, then Dianne Webster's photo of David Payne leaving the water, and lastly the changing of clothing. Let's look at each of them.

Sailing experience.

These are the crafts that were used by Mark Warner:
For Beginners & Intermediates - Dart 16 - Laser Bahia - Laser Stratos - Laser Pico - Laser Vago
For Intermediates and Advanced - Hobie Cat 15 - Vago - RS Vision - Laser 1 - Laser XD

When Matt says “...they've got some (inaudible) cats, which are, erm, sort of sixteen foot long, and from whose words you assume it to be a Hobie16 catamaran, I have to say that I think he's referring to a Hobie 15, as the Hobie 16 is 17 feet long, and, as we can see, not available at MW.

But you’re not the one in judgment here. You’ve rightfully expressed your opinion, which I respect it, as I respect the fact that you did do it in another place other than this blog, where, I think, would have been the right place to question it.

What is being questioned is Matt’s sailing experience, and the near-drowning incident that he was allegedly involved with Rob.

Besides the Tapas saying so, we don’t really know how experienced a sailor Matt really is, and it’s not the simple fact that he says “cats” that makes him one. As you’ll see, it appears to me that he’s much more a beholder of indoctrinated experience rather than having a real one. But that is my opinion, and opinions are subjective and I’ll let the readers decide for themselves.

When Matt uses the term “cat”, my experience is that people use the term “Hobie” or “Hobie cat” and I’ve never heard just “cat”. I feel using the word "cat" is touching on the use of lingo but in MY experience all the sailors called them Hobies.

BUT my only experience of these crafts is a watersports holiday and not at a club maybe like you might have, docmac, as you appear to be a person with some sailing experience. If you don't, I apologise for assuming such fact.

But continuing, I'm not saying that it isn’t used, and maybe some people do, I just haven’t heard it, but it's the people from clubs are the ones who go on this type of holiday.

As I said it is not the use of the term “cat” to define a Hobie Cat 15, that determines Matt’s experience. Nor when he says, implying an unfulfilled wish, "I'd really like to sail" instead of “I like sailing xxxx” that one would the expect from an experienced sailor:

And I'd been, we'd been down to the beach a couple of times before but we'd end up going canoeing and I'd always wanted to go sailing because the boats that I'd really like to sail are the big catamarans”

One would expect such wishful thinking from the least experienced sailor Russell O’Brien.

But let’s return to the type of crafts as it’s relevant in terms of the experience of the person sailing it. Hobie 15 “The School”, with its original design, the huge hull volume, has become a reference in institutional off the beach sailing and has been chosen by a great number of sailing schools and leisure operators such as Club Med, Club Adriana, Club Robinson, Sunsail, UPCA, VDWS…

The huge volume of the hulls ensures buoyancy and safety.

The Hobie 16 is used for racing and one notable flaw is the tendency of the boat to “pitchpole” when running downwind, the sail plan and distribution of the floatation of the hulls is such that it can push the bows down far enough to dip them under the water, stopping the front of the boat and leading to a cartwheel or summersault and subsequent capsize of the boat.

The Hobie 16 is not the ideal craft for staff that is responsible for looking after their clients.

As MW advertise, they used the Hobie 15 as it would seem the best type to use for a range of sailors considering different levels of experience.  

Rob says “Well we, me and Matt had gone down to the beach to go on, as I say, Matt’s a good, quite a good sailor and we took one of the, the, erm, the catamarans out. So we’d gone down, erm, just after lunch, probably after the kids had gone back to the Kids Club, so two, two o’clock, two or three o’clock, and had quite a long sail, erm, we were out for a long time, Matt sailed for a bit and then I sailed for a bit and he kind of gave me a bit of a lesson really. Erm, as I said, he, he got bounced overboard and the kind of wire snapped and I had to learn quite quickly how to turn a catamaran round and not run someone over in the water with it. So we pick, you know, we picked him back up, erm, a boat came back out and repaired, you know, kind of repaired the, the bit that had snapped, erm, it was the harness.”

As I said, safety is paramount and all customers are monitored closely so the staff would know exactly who was on the water, the craft they were using and their experience.

There would be a RIB on the outer perimeter in radio contact with other staff. The Portuguese Navy is very rigorous in this matter, and the fact that you own a boat DOES NOT entitle you to just put yourself in it and sail out.

You have to have the adequate qualifications or be supervised by someone who has. From Rob’s words we now know that the ‘incident’ was monitored by the safety boat, therefore where was booking reference and where is the incident report?

Then, we also know that there was repair done out at sea by the safety boat, one supposes, but how one has to wonder. Do safety-boats bring along repair parts with them, or, as they should, are there to protect the safety of the sailors?

Also, when the boat was handed back, surely the damage must have been reported to the owner. You don't return a rented item that you've damaged and just walk away. No sign of such report, and no sign of wasting anytime reporting it.

 To be noticed at this point is the sailing abilities of a novice in handling a craft that, as we’ve seen, is for “Intermediates and Advanced” .

More from Rob: “Reply - I think I booked into Water Sports on the Saturday at this meeting at the Tapas, I think that’s where you made your bookings, it possibly may have been on the Sunday, I’m not entirely sure there, but, erm”.

How VAGUE is this? We have the holiday reviews which clearly state that daily water sport bookings were taken at breakfast at the Millennium, not at Tapas.  

"1578 “So the booking for Water Sports?” 

Reply “May have been on the Saturday at the Tapas, it could have possibly been on, at a separate meeting on the Sunday, I’m not entirely sure whether there was one, one introductory meeting where everything happened including some of your bookings for what you wanted to do or whether there was a separate one on the Sunday. But, erm, but just the way, the way this reads it implies that I had wind surfing lessons that day, but actually, erm, there was no water, I don’t think there was anything in terms, in terms of lessons down at the waterfront until the Monday”. 

1578 “’I can’t recall exactly what I did on that day’ it should read, shouldn’t it?” 

Reply “On that day, yeah. Erm, but ‘I’d agreed to have wind surfing lessons and do a bit of sailing’ shall we say ‘Monday through Thursday’, we add ‘Monday through Thursday’, because we certainly didn’t do that, I think the Sunday was sort of a, a relative day off for, erm, for the staff, staff work weekends as well well certainly with the, you know, for the staff at the beach I think. I think the rest of it’s fine. I don’t, I really can’t recall an awful lot about the Sunday, I think we probably just had a bit of a look round, a trip to the beach. I’ve got a vague idea I, that you may have been able to still hire the kayaks, so I think I might have had a go on one of them,”

Let's overlook the fact the Police tells what a witness means to say. Where are these booking statements? If they existed the staff would know him and have to arrange instruction or assessment, and by the way, in the tourism business, there is such no thing as a week-end.  

Saturdays and Sundays are usually the most busy days, as those on holiday are joined by those on weekends looking for leisure.

Yes, they do rest, but that’s usually called the “day-off”.

We now see, from these statements that the staff knew these people and had spent time making sure they knew how to handle the craft. (Could it be possible the staff knew these people in the UK so knew their capabilities? Witnesses coerced?).

Now, one must wonder who really is the experienced sailor. Matt’s sailor lingo seems not to match up with the experience, Rob is the one that says that he reserves the watersports, and not the experienced sailor, and lastly, when Rob says that “I had to learn quite quickly how to turn a catamaran round and not run someone over in the water with it, when supposedly they were a mile out to sea, where, we’re supposing, the sailing “traffic” wouldn't be that intense, and hardly anyone to run over, seems more like an experienced sailor describing what, if he were a novice, he would do, as safety of others is key factor in sailing. It runs in their blood.

I don’t think a real novice would be worried in hitting someone in the head, but would be concentrating all his efforts in maintaining minimum control of the craft until help arrived.  

Matt says “....took one of the cats out and we were out a bit longer than expected because part of the boat's strapping fell off and I fell off the back and so we got sort of stranded in the water and he didn't really know how to sail but managed to bring the boat round and I was sort of like a mile from shore thinking I'm going to have to swim all the way back.”

Normally one falls off the side of a boat and not the back.

Would an experienced sailor think of swimming back a mile, when he knows that safety boats patrol the area, and keep a look out? I say NO WAY.

I say he would try to maintain contact with his novice friend, instructing him the best way possible, helping him in all possible ways, until the safety boat arrived.

I think it should be considered that Russell might be more experienced than Matt. Russell is a friend of James Gorrod who is a watersports coach and CD of Surfers against sewage.  

Mr Gorrod lives in Exeter and was on holiday at the same time as T9.

Anyhow, I don’t think, docmac, I really don’t think I was inconsistent in my post on this issue. The pronunciation of one lingo word, doesn’t make one a pro, and there seems some indications that the gentleman in question, Matt, may not be as experienced as he would like us to believe he is. Why this role reversal?
Dianne Webster's photo.

Let’s use her words: “Yeah, again I’ve got a photograph of them on the beach after that” This is she speaking about Rob and Matt, but the “again” clearly states a repetition of action.

A picture is a picture... the expression to be used, in case she intended to use it as you suggest, then would be more like "…I still have the image of...", or "… I’ve got this picture in my mind…". The words “again” and “photograph” are quite sufficient to clarify this non-inconsistency, I think, and hope you agree, docmac.

The wetsuits.

Rob, in his own words, has booked watersports activities for most of the week, so is NOT a random whim. It’s a clear intent. They did not just stroll by the beach, saw the boats, and said, hey, let’s sail!  

He says he booked at MW right after they arrived. This, in my view, means they would hardly book a watersports holiday with the intention of sailing and windsurfing without taking their own kit. In which case they would have kit bags (not Tesco carrier bags) in which to put the suits after dripping.

Again from experience, wetsuits are important pieces of kit. In all their statements they deny taking any.

What I did really forget to mention is when you come from the water and hang your suit up to drip, you would normally leave it for a while before going back to collect it. Or the other thing is to wear it for a while until it's dry enough to pack it a bag, one that is big enough to take a man size suit.  

Matt looks very tall and that photo looks like 2 men of the same height. I just don't believe any of these doctors would dream of wearing borrowed wetsuits (people do pee in them) when they would have their own kit.

I just think it wouldn't happen, as I think they have made a big mistake with this whole thing saying they didn't take any equipment with them.

When I did this sort of holiday, in the room I would put on my swimming costume and then put my wetsuit on like shorts leaving the top hanging loose then put a T shirt on top to walk down to the beach.

I didn't take clothes with me. After skiing I would stand under the shower to rinse the salt off the suit then take it off, hang it up to dry then put the T shirt back on over the swimsuit and go back to the room to shower properly.

Wet wetsuits are like sponges so need to drip for a while before putting them in a bag. The bag then has to be taken somewhere. And you can imagine what happens if you put a wet wetsuit on the sand?  

No-one says they had to take kit or bags back to the apartment.

I would like to know if anyone saw any wetsuits hanging out to dry on any of the balconies on any of the days?

We haven’t seen any evidence that there are showering and changing facilities on the beach. There's this Beach Hut, that seems more into spur of the moment kind of water fun such as flyfish, bananas and ringos, that sort of thing, but also caters sailing, winsurf and kayaking.

No mention of wetsuit rental, but that doesn't mean it hasn't:
We can now see Beach Hut provides the watersports now (presumably previously used by MW?) but the hut does not look like a shower block, a place fully equipped for showers and changing clothes. Or left stored there while they were at Paraiso.

And would one book a boat at MW, and the wetsuit down at the beach? Is there ANY logic in that?

But let’s hear Rob on this particular subject:  

“Reply ’Matt and I went kayaking’. I think Dave came, yeah, maybe even Dave came as well. There was, there was several on one occasion, the three, the three of us”. 

1578 “’Kayaking, possibly with Dave’?” 

Reply “Possibly, but certainly with Matt and maybe, erm, ‘with Matt and possibly also Dave’. There was one, there was one occasion when the three of us took the kayaks out. And then we came back to the shore and by the time we got back to the shore, and I think we’d noticed for some time before that the, a lot of the others had congregated down on the beach and were down by the, by the waterfront, pretty much at the end of the, the boardwalk from the Paradiso Restaurant. 
So me and Matt got, dropped the boat off, came over, erm, lots of general laughter about Matt’s near death experience and, erm, I trying to, you know, play up the glory as much as possible of course. Erm, the kids were playing there, erm, this was, I would imagine would be, you know, quarter past four, half four time, erm, when we probably finished sailing. Erm, went for a swim."

 So, were they on kayaks or were they on “cats”?!?

Can't these people just for ONE time make up their minds on what they did?!?

Did Matt fall off the back of a kayak?

Anyhow, even kayaking would still be watched on the water for safety reasons, and any accident reported. 

But the big question here is: when does Rob swim? Clearly it’s after sailing, and Matt says, like you say he does “And so we sort of put the boat away, got changed and came over to them”, so apparently, for the two statements to make sense, Rob, sailed, got out of his wetsuit (we still don’t know where they left it or where they took them), put’s on dry clothes, “comes over”, then changes back into swimming trunks, or the same wetsuit, takes a swim, and then changes back again into dry clothes, as appears as dry as if he never has been in water the whole day at Paraíso’s.

Oh, and somewhere in between he dashes off to pick up his daughter from the Creche.

The devil is in the detail, docmac.

Thank you for questioning me, it gave me an opportunity to solidify even further my belief that none of the Tapas did any watersports, in the afternoon of May 3rd.


  1. I think one of the big problems is the conflicting statements of the group. It's easy to follow one statement and base a theory on that but reading the rest just makes for confusion, which is what G Mc stated during an interview, that no-one knows what is true because of this. Good marketing ploy?

    The only way to deal with these confusing situations is to work through them logically.

  2. ..."I had to learn quite quickly how to turn a catamaran round and not run someone over in the water with it”, when supposedly they were a mile out to sea, where, we’re supposing, the sailing “traffic” wouldn't be that intense, and hardly anyone to run over,"...

    Here, I think he was talking about Oldfield. He woried about hitting Oldfield, who was in the water.

  3. Anon
    Jan 15, 2011 9:02:00 AM

    Matt, per owns Rob's words, is said to have fallen off the BACK of the kayak/catamaran, so that's why "I had to learn quite quickly how to turn a catamaran round". What is intended to convey, is he didn't want to hit other boats that could be out there.

    Unfortunately, as usually happens when one is fibbing, the invention cannot cover all details, and the details invented are, well, invented.

    How many recreational boats do you think were out at sea, a mile out in the Atlantic in a chilly very early May?

    I know there's a marina in Lagos, but most boats moored there are only sailed in summer months, so there would be none to minimum "traffic" out where they say they were. And one of the enjoyments of sailing ie to explore the immense open space it offers, and not cluster with other boats. If there were any.

    And even more scarce than boats would be people to be floating about.

  4. I agree @ 9.02

    It was Russell who was supposed to be rescuing MO. The post was questioning whether in fact either of these two really were at sea when they say they are and which was really the competent sailor.

    They can't even decide whether they were in kayaks or catamarans and whether DP was with them or not. They completely forget that there is always a safety boat watching everyone closely so there would be no reason to swim a mile to shore.
    Then we are told the safety boat comes out and fixes the broken device at sea. I wonder what sort of device would fail on a kayak for someone to fall 'off the back' of it.

    Would anyone take a kayak or a cat a mile out in the Atlantic without the safety boat noticing?

  5. Is there any independent witness stating that they went to the sea at the ime they are saying? I believe a situation like that cannot happen wihout been noticed by other people in the beach.

    If they really went to the sea, the wet suits could be changed in the sea and dropped at the sea inside bags that could contain 'the body'. Because that take some time, they were forced to invent a story to explain the time they spend there, o the police.
    I believe, the Millenium, what was recorded in the Millenium and the statements of the Millenium workers are more important for the investigation, then the Tapas. The Tapas was programmed to divert atention and entertain the police and he journalists.

  6. Anon @ 9.42

    The water sports staff are the most important witnesses for this. I suppose they can be considered part of the Mill staff for the purpose of this exercise because that is where the daily bookings took place.

    Why is there not one statement especially from the person who was SUPPOSED to repair the craft and the safety boat driver.

    To leave a wetsuit at sea would have alerted attention. If they were hired suits the MW staff would be asking questions. They all state they didn't take kit with them so we have to presume they hired suits. Everyone would be asking questions if 2 men came from the Atlantic sea without suits on.

    To take a bag on a Hobie would be very strange and if they were kayaking, even more strange.

  7. I really believe the all epysode with a boat in the sea was a fabrication. For safety reasons I don't believe any boat sailed by tourists was allowed to went in the sea in a cold and windy day. Normally the waves are high during this days and too danger to let tourists go.
    But on the other hand we have the nanny reporting the yellow catamaran with kids on that day. I can't see anywhere an independent witness or a picture wih kids on the Catamaran, on that day. If the Catamaran went to the sea, I believe many proud parents will be there taking pictures of their kids. Amaral refer on his book the Catamaran but did not say if the story was true. I feel strange the yellow Catamaran with kids in the sea when the weather was not so nice. Having a day with sun in May did not make it a good and safe day to went to the sea with small kids.
    Wonder why the sea was dragged into the story by the all directed involved in the cover up, on that particular day? To divert attention from other places or to explain the presence of some people in some odd places.... if witnessed by somebody extra the saga?

  8. We read the tapas statements and straight away stop inconsistencies, hesitations and fabrications, the same applies to the mccanns statements and interviews so why is nothing done about this situation, clearly it should be investigated why are these people allowed to continue working in the public sector and raising money to fund there lifestyle when they have done nothing to search for their daughter they have hindered and sued individuals simply to make more money for themselves this is all so wrong and to say our society fights for justice is nothing more than pure dribble when guilty individuals like this are protected from the crimes they have committed.

  9. Anon @ 10.26

    Indeed! Why are these people being protected?
    There are too many people seeking a resolution to this case that it can't be ignored forever and if we keep asking questions something will happen. Certain people know the truth and one day will not be able to keep up the pretence any longer. It's not going to go away.

    It could be conscience, reward, anger that someone has put them in a situation which causes them problems and no doubt, sleepless nights or just being unable to take the strain of suspicion any longer that someone tells the truth.

    What concerns me is that most of the group are doctors....who would want any of these so called professional people anywhere near them? They are dealing with the health and welfare of the general public. Although the patients who prefer to see them in their private clinics have a choice.

  10. Other tourists at PDL recalled Gerry as being a 'loud mouth' so I am surprised that such a loudmouth missed this sailing opportunity where he would have ensured he was the centre of attention showing off where were Kate and Gerry? there seems a few occasions that they were missing from the group activities for example on the last day of the holiday at the paradiso they were absent not on the CCTV - I do not believe they were as close to the rest of this group as they would have us believe, what hold does he have over them to ensure their continued silence, something they know will destroy their reputations if it ever came out!!!!!

  11. I think this shows why none of the statements fit - no one is able to understand what this holiday was for or why they went on holiday together. Its such a jumble that it would not be a holiday. I have read the statements over and over but it's too difficult to understand what was going on.

    It was supposedly a 'family holiday' where they all could enjoy themselves. But the children were in the creche or nursery and the adults seemed to be engaged in haphazard sporting activities none of which ring true. Just like the time-line for the checking in the evening, and who was where and when. Now some of them can't even remember who they were "sailing" with or who was on the beach at what time and what day and when!

    It's all just a jumble - but as has previously been said - that's the way it was meant to be.


  12. Yeah! Agree with almost all.

    The key lies on a few Tapas members that are missing.

    We are always talking about Tapas 9 but the main point is an enlarge group of maybe Tapas 11 or Tapas 12.

    That's why we cannot see Kate and Gerry all the afternoons - they were busy with the rest of the members....

  13. If you can accept it was not a family holiday but a corporate relationship building week paid for entirely by a pharmaceutical company the whole mystery is simple to follow and the pieces fall into place. These trips are common place particularly within the drugs industry and the NHS.
    Ambitious people need to be on the gravytrain list.

    It is not just holidays but incentives, free gifts, golf days, tickets to sporting events etc, etc.

    Gerry told us this himself, "I'm not here to enjoy myself".

    This in its self was an inhouse NHS joke, "free holidays and he still moans" which has back fired.

    No he was there to backslap and gladhand himself up the greasy corporate pole. These events can be a pain but you have to go.

    The confusion is there for a simple reason, we are directed to look the wrong way, away from corruption and dishonesty.

    Texusa is spot on, the McCanns are not child neglectors and the Tapas is important only to divert attention.

  14. Anon @ 10.03

    I had the same thoughts about the trip being a corporate trip but surely golf would have been on the agenda? G is a keen golfer too.

    As for team building, I'm not sure as there doesn't seem to be any activity they do apart from the purported tennis which was very haphazard and G seems to have separate 'lessons' to the rest of the group.

    BUT it could explain lack of credit card statements.

  15. I agree I feel that it was a 'business trip' out of season so not to clash with already booked 'family holidays' in July/Aug. The mccanns were missing on quite a few occasions which under the circumstances would appear unsocialble, and the reluctance to hand over credit card statements etc because a company had paid for the holiday,and they were just a bunch of freeloaders, perhaps the rest of the tapas group believed the abduction theory on the 3rd - the whole saga needs proper investigation they should all be made to co-operate, too many people bury their heads in the sand and as a consequence of this the mccanns have escaped justice.

  16. Another thing that seems strange is that Madeleine was made a ward of court, the mccanns never mention this in their interviews, so why is the money from the forthcoming book going to the mccanns for their 'make believe' investigation. Why does Judge Hogg not get involved, do interviews, ask questions if she has responsibility for the child surely this is what she should be doing, what a joke our justice system is.

  17. Anon,
    Jan 16, 2011 10:03:00 AM

    Thank you for your compliments. But as I've said many times before before, this blog at this point in time, DOES NOT think that that week of holiday had NO business conotation, and that includes pharmaceutical ones.

    Unlike you say, that if it was pharmaceutical business gathering, it would all be simple to understand, as it would then fail to explain neither the need of covering up Maddies death, nor the involvement in it of many OC guests and PdL residents, that have absolutely no connections with the medical field.

  18. I believe the possible medical/pharmaceuical connections were checked by PJ and dismissed. Amaral never talk about that on any of his interviews. I don't believe that a pharmaceutical company will engage in the cover up of a crime that can be solved one day destroying the image and the reputation of the company. The Holidays seems more a Swing holiday with all guests and the resort being cautious because they don't want to be connected with such type of holidays, no matter if they are almost all swingers. Hypocrisy is a most when the issue is controversial and not well accepted by the big majority of the society. Just think about the behaviour of the witnesses when a car accident happen- everybody went away when the police arrives to avoid stating what they saw. Imagine if a girl dies in a resort where babysitters were available and parents spent the time with swing.

  19. Whenever we've been on holiday if we use expensive equipment we have to pay a deposit just in case of damage or loss, there should be records that list which types of boats the tapas used whether hobies or lasers, dates and names of personnel using the equipment for safety reasons, if there are no records then there were no trips.

  20. Sorry off topic but am searching for holidays and just seen an apartment (Oasis Beach, Algarve) located 100 metres from Praia da Luz centre and 50 metres from the beach and owned by a Mr Gaspar...worth investigating?

  21. just googled those apartments and Gaspar is spelt the same as in mccanns statements, it does make one wonder.... I always felt the Gaspars statements seemed rather odd, didn't really fit......and Sr Amarel believed the body had been moved from different locations, it seems feasible Maddie was kept in an apartment...before being moved to her final resting place...

  22. post 10:59, Jan 16,

    I agree. The body was kept between the R. Scenic and some other places until they got ride of it. I believe Pj know it and knows or had a strong suspiction about where are that places but they need an authorization from a judge or the head of PJ to search for evidences, and at some point of the investigation, the acceptable evidences could be only the body physically. Any other evidence, no matter how strong it was, will be discredit by the Mccann's and their media machine, leaving PJ alone and in a bad situation. The coward behaviour of the British authorities, specially the police, tells everything on that investigation. And is the only reason why that case was not solved and the Mccann's were allowed to carry on a fraudulent Fund based on a faked abduction. Both serious crimes if an independent justice was allowed to work. They had more connections, more friends then the ones they repported to the police. The prove for that was the easy integration of Kate and Gerry in the expat/ British comunnity, the relationship with a priest that just arrives and the trips coming back to a painful place to visit their friends. I believe any other parents of a real abducted child will never come back to the place where their child disappeared, will never say that there is no evidences about the child being harmed. PDL will be synonim of pain and nightmares. They will spread all over, the pain and the damage done to their girl to sensibilze the public and the police to help searching her.
    What the Mccann's were or are doing? Cleaning their image. It was 4 years about themselves. Nothing about Madeleine. 4 years saying that she did not went trough any pain(abduction for them is not bad enough to cause any pain on their daughter's) then the only message we can read is: THERE WAS NO ABDUCTION. MCANN'S KNOW WHERE AND WHAT HAPENNED TO MADELEINE AND DON'T WANT THE PUBLIC AND THE POLICE TO KNOW THE TRUTH. The all lies and the Fund were created to feed an innuendo that went so well that provide to them a good source of money.
    Unless the body of Madeleine or the remains were recovered, tha crime will be never solved. And even with the body recovered, the police have to work with inteligence to catch them because the characters involved on the saga quicly will jump to claim that whatever was done, was done by the abductor. Some Hewletts will be dragged in again.
    Kate said to a portuguese journalist in Lisbon that she knows what hapenned to Madeleine because she was there. She even knows that the abductor was a men. The Smiths sight tell the world WHO WAS THE ABDUCTOR, ABOUT WHO (MAN) KATE WAS TALKING. All he criminals reveal many important pieces from their crimes. Like a puzzle we just need to connect the pieces in the right place, to find the truth. To bring that criminals to justice, PJ needs much more... NEED A CONFESSION FROM ONE OF THE TAPAS OR THE BODY. Only a social recriminated behaviour or a mistake in the Tapas 7 working activities that end up wih the death of one of the doctors pacient, could help Kate, Gerry and Mitchell holding the necks of the Tapas 7 so tight. One secret covers another secret. The Tapas Childs, including the twins will break that secrets one day.

  23. IMO whatever happened to Madeleine happened in the morning or afternoon of the 3rd thats why the mccanns were missing from the Paradiso CCTV also David Payne said he visited Kate later but there were conflicting statements about the length of time he stayed so he probably never went there at all, this just gave Kate an alibi.Gerry playing tennis was his alibi. Nobody saw Madeleine on the last day. If she met with an accident in the morning they could have placed her behind the sofa while they decided what to do, hence the cavader, and deleted phone messages Later that day she would have been removed then they decided on their abduction story. I do not believe all the Tapas were involved but they have now been caught up in it, I do not believe Smiths or Gaspars statements these are all added to make speculation and Murat is definitely involved somehow.

  24. Fiona Payne makes an error in her statement that indicates non of the group did water sports.

    There was no waterskiing offered by MW, it was only done by a different club in peak season but on another beach, lastly there is no way beginners could learn on the Atlantic especially in April/early May! More confirmation they didn't do any watersports. None of the MW staff had British Fed Ski Awards as they were British instructors and you can't take customers skiing without the qualification.

    FP says...."And then after that we, Dave and I had booked in for a whole week of either, sort of alternate ski, water sports, one day would be wind surfing, the next day sailing".

    Talking of April/early May has reminded me of CM's ridiculous statement recently saying Maddy had been targeted after the 'abductor' watched the apartment for weeks and months.

    As the complex had only just opened for the new season I wonder what he would have been monitoring?

  25. Anon @ 2:04,

    Will be interesting to know if the OC is openned the all year or if follows the pattern of many resorts and small hotels in Algarve that just open for Christmas and New year in the winter and start the season with easter until the end of the summer. 5 Hotels are openned the full year. Most of the others open only on the hot season when the amount of tourists justifies the salaries.
    Mitchell is a compulsive liar and he did not resist to lie again on his last interviews with BBC. The abductor waiting weeks or months is laughable. Main because in Jan, Feb, March and even April, PDL must be empty. What a guy, targeting a British girl in a town where the number of childs could be easily counted.

  26. Anon. @ Jan 17, 2011 8:05:00 PM, wrote:

    "What a guy, targeting a British girl in a town where the number of childs could be easily counted."

    How true indeed, considering that, just across the road from apartm. 5A there is a kindergarten school. Plenty of very young children to tempt any abductors around...

  27. Gaspar is a portuguese surname, I suppose that apartment in Oasis beach is owned by a portuguese person whose surname is Gaspar.
    Maybe the doctor Gaspar from the Gaspar's statements is of portuguese descent. His first name sounds asian, maybe he is from India (Goa) or from Sri Lanka. There are still many people with portuguese surnames in both. Unlike the british, the portuguese mixed with and married with the locals, the portuguese surnames are the heritage from the portuguese presence since the 16th century.

  28. 1) Accident fall in the afternoon (maybe due adult involvement, dead and autopsy has to occur in a local hospital???!!!);

    2) Afternoon to clean and rearrange the furniture and think in a possible plan like abduction; other possibilities were considered as well;

    3) phone calls, emergency plans, alibis for everyone;

    4) decisions; dinner happening to see and be seen;

    5) nannies dismissed only that night;

    6) first removal from holiday apartment to a resident apartment near LUZ; church has nothing to do with a hidden body. Church was used to met people to help; there is an old ex-pat with major interest for the case;

    7) new removal destination: England or PDL (still???)

    8) People involved: around 12 sad persons with a heavy burst each;

    9) Case closed with a little help from UK friends that are not interested in being connected with Tapas lifestyle adult activities.

    10) Case Still Closed - Is on parents best interest to keep the file investigation closed/archived. Archived file = no police investigation!

    11) Gonçalo Amaral is the only person with great interest to reopen the police file. One small David against Golias (a powerful group of people with different interests that want to avoid this mass). All of them have a lot or a little to loose but definitely have something to loose with a case reopening.

    That's how it goes - everybody knows! Welcome to real life!

  29. @Ano 9:10
    "he probably never went there at all, this just gave Kate an alibi"

    Yeah, I thought that was a lie from the beginning and was surprised, textusa believed it to be true.
    But the more ppl post here their opinions, the clearer the picture gets about the alleged events in the afternoon of May 3rd. I also agree, that Mr. Murat definitely is somehow involved. I think he is the Expat, who helped the T9 a lot. I also think he got accused by purpose and know, what was coming. After all, he got huge compensation money and that was part of the plan, too.

  30. @ Anon 12:48:00 pm

    "3) phone calls, emergency plans, alibis for everyone;"

    Yeah, exactly. Thanks to textusa and great inputs here on this side, one can see that now clearly. All the statements of T9 about May 3rd are nothing than a big cover up to provide all of the group with alibis, in particular Kate.

  31. Anon
    Jan 18, 2011 8:03:00 PM

    No use buttering up my toast really nice and thick to try and confuse the readers of this blog.

    As I’ve said before, if for nothing else, Sina J’s post, PROVES that Maddie did not die before the afternoon of the third, or better yet, PROVES that Maddie died AFTER the CCTV pictures in which David, Rob and Matt appear. So my belief that David Payne was at the McCann Apartment at 18:30, as he says he is, remains intact.

    Also, let me clarify, once again, that Murat is not THE Expat that helped the Tapas lot.

    Murat is but ONE of the MANY Expats that helped the Tapas lot. Along with the OC Guests. So do not reduce, please, the “external” help to a single person. He’s served as distraction long enough, hasn’t he? Give the man a break, and put all the other “players” of his team, playing along side him, will you?

    Jan 18, 2011 8:06:00 PM (which I believe to also be Anon Jan 18, 2011 8:03:00 PM)

    Putting the heat on Kate just shows how you guys are starting to break.

  32. Dear Textusa,

    The ex-pat I was telling you about is older and was linked to arquitecture projects on his golden years.

    "...PROVES that Maddie did not die before the afternoon of the third..." of course, agree! Afternoon goes until evening right?

    And we agree that David was there don't we? Do you think that when is calling angels to the title ones in their white shiny and clean pijamas was betrayed by is own mind?

    Let me tell you that you give Murat too much credibility. Hope he does not let you down one day!

  33. Anon

    I'm supposing that you're Anon Jan 18, 2011 8:06:00 PM / Anon Jan 18, 2011 8:03:00 PM.

    If the ex-pat you were telling me about is older and was linked to arquitecture projects on his golden years, then it’s not compatible with your explicit wording in the comment “I also agree, that Mr. Murat definitely is somehow involved. I think he is the Expat, who helped the T9 a lot”.

    And apparently we also don’t seem to agree if David was there or not, as, unlike you say today, yesterday, when commenting another person’s words “he (David) probably never went there at all, this just gave Kate an alibi", you said “Yeah, I thought that was a lie from the beginning and was surprised, textusa believed it to be true.”

    About David Payne calling “angels to the little ones in their white shiny and clean pijamas”, it’s my opinion that it's NOT his conscience betraying him but rather it's the said individual displaying a syndrome very common in liars and which I call ATEPS – Adding That Extra Pinch of Salt.

    By the way, ATEPS, has been for us in the blog, thankfully, a most helpful tool. One day I might write about it.

    Lastly, you linking an Expat to "architecture in his golden years" as well as your worry about our judgment on Murat’s credibility (which we have given him none to date) makes one think that you might know quite a lot about this case. I hope that you or any other poster, IF you have relevant infomation, will find the courage needed to inform the Portuguese Police.

  34. I wish I could have relevant information to help police move forward although I believe police is handling this case very well without my thoughts about what may happened on 3rd may later afternoon and where did they kept the body.

    What I feel about Murat - and that has to do with the ability to put ourselves in other person shoes - is that from what he went through his response were very weak so far.

    He was arrested, was pointed as a possible abductor, his integrity was shaken, he was on television, had his face on newspapers and after wall this nightmare he did respond as was expected. I wonder why...

    It is not lack of money, now that he has plenty of it (given by english media, look to whom: tapas and Murat...), he has is house restored, looks very pretty vivenda Liliana, but he didn't restore the most important thing: his good name as McCanns were done with GA (and here we know who is right and who is diabolic...).

    All this makes me wonder ....

    By the way, the ex-pat I was telling you about was that senior that gave the keys to the couple!

  35. Hello,
    I am Anon Jan 18, 2011 8:06:00 PM Jan 18, 2011 8:03:00 PMA

    Anon Jan 19, 12:26 is not me (just to make clear, because he did not say anything about it).

    "I’ve said before, if for nothing else, Sina J’s post, PROVES that Maddie did not die before the afternoon of the third, or better yet, PROVES that Maddie died AFTER the CCTV pictures in which David, Rob and Matt appear. So my belief that David Payne was at the McCann Apartment at 18:30, as he says he is, remains intact."

    OK. But you have not told us yet, why it proves it. So I am looking forward to another text of yours that might explain it to us and then I will chance my mind perhaps again.
    In fact, Maddie could have died earlier or closer to 17:30 (my opinion). The closer to the evening, the less time they had to do the cleaning (washing of curtains incl. drying) plus talking to each other. Also the smell of cadaver must have had time to develop and that is usually more than 1 hr. Thus I doubt, she died at 9pm. And DP's alleged visit at Kate was just never logical to me. Why would he "look after" her anyways? Add to that the ATEPS habit of him, as you call it.

    "Also, let me clarify, once again, that Murat is not THE Expat that helped the Tapas lot.

    Murat is but ONE of the MANY Expats that helped the Tapas lot."

    I meant that he obviously was a contact person for the Mcs to other ex-pats (I am sure he knows them almost all). That does not rule out that the Mcs knew other expats there in advance, too. Just wanted to express that I think he was somehow involved - on the contrary what many ppl think and write on other boards about the "poor Murat" who falsely got accused etc.
    And NO, I do not know MORE about this case, in fact, only have read about it since Oct/Nov last year, because the Mcs showed up in our newspapers again begging for money for their fund and some commentator mentioned GA, whose name I googled and only learnt then about all this GA sueing and how the case got shelved back then. We were never told in the press about those details.

  36. Hi Tex

    The reason I believe whatever happened to Madeleine happened before evening was because the McCanns were missing from the last days activities with their friends as depicted by CCTV in Paradiso IMO. There was an accident during the day and as a consequence Madeleine died, now because the McCanns could not afford and chose not to stay in PDL for the autopsy, perhaps they had been giving her sedatives, they needed to get back to work earning money to pay that big mortgage, the holiday was cheap and so was the accommodation, it was out of season which gives an indication of their finances. They used that afternoon to set into motion their abduction theory, and they would have disposed of Madeleine in the afternoon. There is no paedophilia involved or swingers these were just people on holiday together, who would take the mother-in-law if they were swingers?? The McCanns were not as involved with the group as they would have us believe, look at the distances they all lived from one another, they were all just casual acquaintances. Mrs Webster, IMO had gone along as a baby sitter whilst the couples were out socialising night after night, all the children in one room with Mrs Webster. IMO after Maddie met with her accident the mccanns panicked, they knew if they were held up in Portugal for months they would lose the house and twins so they decided to cover it up. At dinner that night Madeleine’s book was returned to mrs mccann probably by Diane Webster who had used it during the week to read to the children and Madeleine, otherwise why take a Childs book to dinner? They drank quite a lot of wine between them, Gerry probably encouraged them to drink more, a couple of times he left the table as witnessed by OC staff, probably used the excuse that Madeleine was sleeping earlier so they would not disturb her and so she was not put with the other children in one room on this occasion and she was left in her own bed, so he would just pop up and pretend to check on her then at 10.00 as it was getting dark, Kate and Gerry knew most people had finished their shifts, so not too many people around Kate pretended that Madeleine had been abducted, Gerry reinforced this idea with the rest of the group, he probably even suggested he’d seen strangers wandering around, the group went back to the rest of the children who were alone in a room with a baby monitor the twins were moved back into their normal bedroom. Gerry and Kate would have convinced the rest of the group that maddie had been abducted and the group believed it why wouldn’t they? He probably also suggested that perhaps the children should not have been left unattended so hence the conflicting checking stories, remember these people had also had a lot of alcohol and would have been easy to manipulate.

    (to be continued...)

  37. (continued..)

    Murat somehow is involved; I believe the story about his hiring a car just does not ring true. Gerry and the wallet story is also a red herring. The mccanns pushed their abduction theory, the media loved it, it sold newspapers, people starting sending donations, mccanns phoned Gordon Brown’s office, they went straight to the top at this stage people believed these middle class doctors and offered help, Gordon Brown lent them Clarence probably in good faith remember the mccanns were on our TV’s 24/7 in those days. Now we see a completely different picture emerging but until those that were taken in by the lies and deceit stand up and say they lied and were tricked nothing is going to get solved. Sr Amarel is a great man he has stood up to these two liars written a factual book, based on police facts, sniffer dogs, etc but he needs the force of a judicial system to support him and sadly none will. The mccanns keep up the pretence of the abduction but they know what happened to their daughter and one day so will we. The above is IMO the mccanns have involved other people for example the Dutch letter was probably instigated by them, as was the Gaspars statements these were to keep David Payne in line, he was the one that wanted to add to his statement now he has the threat of paedophilia hanging over his head to silence him, Yvonne Martin, another odd statement, who says I cannot remember in which capacity I know David Payne either victim or perpetrator!! Smith statements just don’t add up, who remembers a man carrying a child late at night months later!! they are there to muddy the waters, and add confusion like the pharmaceutical company, free masons, the list is endless, but most murders are quite simple cases and this is a straight forward cover up by the ever cunning individuals who were given the benefit of the doubt, amassed enough money to pay for expensive lawyers to protect their reputations – just think about it.

  38. Anon Jan 18, 2011 8:06:00 PM Jan 18, 2011 8:03:00 PMA

    By my response, you can see that your words can be misread. I’ll take your lack of protest against my reaction as a sign of understanding, which I thank.

    Yes, I’ll write a post about why I think Sina J’s post proves what I said it proves. It’s very important for people to fully understand the importance of that post, as well May I’s “Holy Trinity” one.

    About Maddie’s time of death, I place it around 18:30. Even further into the evening than your 17:30. About the time of death being around 21:00/21:30 as suggested by GA, I wrote an intentionally provocative post about it, which I called “Gonçalo Amaral is a Liar”, in which I say that evidence is not compliant with that time of death, so yes, I agree with you that Maddie’s demise occurred early evening. We differ in 1 hour, but that’s the subject of the not yet written post about.

    About Murat, we’re in full agreement.

    About you knowing anything more or not, it’s apparently the case of mistaken identities as it was more of a reply to Anon Jan 19, 2011 12:29:00 PM, whose comment can be interpreted as coming from you, rather than to you.

  39. Anon
    Jan 19, 2011 8:24:00 PM

    Discarding the swinging scenario because DW wouldn't participate in such a thing, because of her age, is to not undertand anything about human sexuality.

    Discarding the swinging scenario because DW wouldn't participate in such a thing because she was FP's mother, is to not take into account the number of people present and the space involved. When I say Expats at PdL, I'm not just limiting the space to the village itself, but also the area around it. Uo to Burgau, for example.

  40. Not limiting the space to the village itself it is a very interesting point. Opens a new window of opportunity to ... Burgau... well, well now we are getting there....

    What does Jane Tunner has to do with this place....?

  41. Anon.8:24, 8:26,

    If Dyane Webster was herself a swinger, what is the problem to go on swing holidays with her daughter? That did not means she joinned the group on their sexual activities but gave her a good chance to meet a group were she can fit perfectly. If that lady was the same that we already saw her facebook page, then she fits well on that holidays.

    The low season holidays was choosed exactly because of the swing motivation. Low season, less people around, more privacy and confidence to the group. That was more important then the price of the holidays.

    Madeleines book was not a story book to be read, was an activity book which makes it more connected with Madeleine and the Mccann's decision to destroy it more odd. I believe the book has Madeleine presence on it, trough the colors she choose to color the pictures, what she written, etc. A piece to be preserved and sacralised by any other parent specially if the child was abducted by a Paedo. The Mccann's decide to contaminate it and destroy the mos recent sign of presence of their child. Disgusting....
    I also don't buy Murat innocence. He got involved, knowing or not the truth from the beginning. Thats why his mum setle a stall out of the police activities to grab information and he got close to the police to do the same. On May 3 later evenning he contacted Malinka ( police files reported it). I believe was not to discuss computer problems with his site. Both of them never gave a consistent excuse for that call.
    I also feel that Murat legal action was to weak compared with what his name went associate to- Paedophilia, abduction, sex with animals. No any paper was sued in Portugal ( too risky because in Portugal any action could end up with investigation reopenned to prove if the paper have reason or not). Later, he fail to sue the Mccann's and the Tapas. When the case become shelved and his arguido status lift, was the right time to sue them. He missed that chance and I just understand hat if by doing it he had the risk to get more troubles then profites.
    Some British community in PDL and surrounds helped the Tapas 9, know the truth and are playing a dirty game with a litte and innocent child. I hope they keep on their minds that this is a lost war, soon they will end up exposed in the Internet. Better they got the courage to go to the police and tell the truth, tell what hapenned to the body. Neighbours are suspecting what they know and that story will never fade if was not solved. The story is growing and the investigation is not anymore a police propriety. Analising, discussing, asking questions, not buying many lies on that story is doing investigation. What many blogs are doing, is investigation and the official police cannot close the eyes for what the public achieve and know. I believe, after the new election of the President of the Republic in Portugal, a new Era will began, no matter if the actual President will be re-elected. He cannot carry on with blindness in cases like Madeleine. The government is weak day after day, lawyers lost all the credibility, justice need to be restored to give stability to the country and cannot be restored without cases like Madeleine being properly investigated and solved.


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