by Sina J
I think we can state none of the group did watersports, because if they did the watersports staff would have been questioned intensely.
There was talk of Maddie's body being dumped at sea so they would have been the people who had records of who took out each craft on each day.
Having enjoyed a watersports holiday and being a regular of water sports on home territory I was surprised that in none of the statements no-one mentioned what type of craft they took out on the water.
Normally one would say I took a Laser Pico or a Hobie, both different sorts of crafts and very different to a windsurfer.
Superman may well spend a couple of hours windsurfing but I very much doubt that a doctor may have the same endurance so can we suppose that when David Payne states he was on the water for ‘a couple of hours’, was not windsurfing, as only he's just human.
In which case he sailed a Laser or Hobie.
The Laser Pico is designed for simplicity and can be crewed by 2 children or 1 adult so we can assume this is not the craft the doctors had an incident with.
So we are left with the Hobie, which is the craft for an experienced sailor and novice crew.
In that case, it would be said “we took out a Hobie or even Hobie cat” but the doctors tell us they ‘did watersports’. Rather vague don’t you think?
On Monday, we are told Fiona and David spent the morning on the beach, after dropping children off, sailing with another chap. It was cold. They wore short wetsuits and returned when it was time to pick up the children. So did they take their own kit?
According to statements nobody took any kit for watersports so where did they get these suits from?
I’m sure the watersports staff keep a check on who makes use of their equipment and they would only be given to customers. Lent only to those customers who have booked a craft, so if they have made a booking there would be a record and the staff would be requested to give statements to confirm this.
Dianne Webster says: “So afternoon activities wouldn’t start until they’d had their nap and that particular day Dave I know was windsurfing in the afternoon, I’ve just got a picture of him walking out of the sea in his wetsuit. Russell and Matt took out a boat because I remember Russell, who doesn’t know anything about sailing, had to rescue Matt.”
Where is there this photo of David Payne? And what did he do with his craft? Leave it in the water??? Normally you take/moor it where you took it from. Unless he didn’t take a craft out????
She continues: “Yeah, again I’ve got a photograph of them on the beach after that, so after the, after the girls had had their sleep we obviously went down to the beach and we all went down apart, well again Kate and Gerry, I think they were more into tennis than the beach, so I didn’t see, see them there that day. So there was myself, Fiona, Rachael, and Jane with all the children. We went down to the beach that day and just played around for a bit and then the men came in from their activities and we then went, because it was quite late, we decided rather than rush the children, to high tea at the Ocean Club. We’d just give them high tea in this beach restaurant that we’d been to before."
Is this the photo that Dianne says she takes this so unclear one? No time and no date on it and basically it's just ANY two men standing together in wetsuits.
So, according to Dianne, they go down to the beach, play around, Dianne takes pictures of David and of Russell and Matthew all in wetsuits, then the men come from the activities and all head for the Paraiso for high tea.
When does the WET/DRY/CHANGE OF CLOTHES happen in this fairytale?
And did they tell their RESCUE STORY at this point? It’s typical of sports enthusiasts to use the terminology of their sport and the onlookers not to do that.
None of the doctors name any of the craft they have purported to sail….why would that be? Quote from ROB. "I went out in the afternoon near to the beach I think possibly me and Matt may have kayaked Then later. I went out in the afternoon to the beach I was with Matt and as far as I can recall we went out kayaking”
Kayaking, in the "hesitant" form, is the closest we get to any watersports terminology.
The absence of statements from any of the staff seems incredible. It’s typical that watersports are closely monitored for safety reasons. People cannot take a craft out to sea without filling in forms. Whether booking forms, insurance disclaimers (presuming they have declared watersport activity on the holiday insurance form because it isn’t normally included) or health declarations and experience history.
Every client is assessed for capability and given weather information before they set out.
We are now presuming that the clients didn’t just turn up on the beach at an indeterminate time on the off chance of a sail with having to accommodate trips to the crèche to collect children. So they will have booked their sail at the Millenium restaurant where the watersports staff congregate each morning to take the daily bookings.
If the doctors have been at sea they would have been monitored, counted out, counted back in and watched during their time at sea so they didn’t go off course. The safety boat would be patrolling the outer perimeter and in radio contact with other staff able to instigate a rescue if things went wrong.
If a device on a craft had failed it would need to be reported to the staff. Repairs would be recorded but we still can’t refer to watersport staff statements….as there are none ….because they didn’t have contact with the group for watersports?
Mark Warner states: Fully Qualified Staff Not only will our fully qualified watersports instructors give you the very best tuition, they'll also keep a constant watch whilst you are out on the water. Their knowledge, together with the full range of safety equipment available, ensures that you're always in safe hands. Safety First We take every precaution to ensure that you're in safe hands and are supervised at all times whilst out on the water. We provide buoyancy aids and helmets and a full safety briefing on arrival.
So why were our doctors allowed to flounder in the water with no assistance? Can we conclude they were not in the water when they say they are? If not where were they?
None of them mention going back to the apartment, having a shower or changing out of wetsuits, or puting away the wet kit in their statements.
We are very precious about our wetsuits and make sure they don’t get hung up to dry with the ‘club suits’, those cheap suits no-one really wants to wear ….or steal.
Even if showers are available on the beach they are just to rinse off the salt water not to have a change into dry clothing.
They did in fact mention staying on the beach after ‘the incident’ and then going to the beach restaurant. We see them in the Paraiso CCTV footage without any bags they would have used to take dry clothing and toiletries to the beach, and have the wetsuits in to be taken back to the apartments.
ROB….he originally stated that he had windsurfing lessons on Sunday but changed that. "Sunday 29th April 2007 I had booked into water-sports on the Saturday but I don't think they operated on Sunday. I can't recall exactly what I did on what day but I had booked to have windsurfing lessons and to do a bit of sailing."
Why did he not know watersports are available EVERY day of the week, surely he would have been told when he ‘booked’ his Sunday windsurfing lesson if was closed for the day?
Can we conclude that none of them went on the water?
Now look again at the Paraiso CCTV, the group are seated shortly after this purported incident and Russell O Brien has collected his daughter, we see no indication of anyone who has been in the sea let alone had an accident and fallen off the …what was it…Hobie?
There was talk of Maddie's body being dumped at sea so they would have been the people who had records of who took out each craft on each day.
Having enjoyed a watersports holiday and being a regular of water sports on home territory I was surprised that in none of the statements no-one mentioned what type of craft they took out on the water.
Normally one would say I took a Laser Pico or a Hobie, both different sorts of crafts and very different to a windsurfer.
Superman may well spend a couple of hours windsurfing but I very much doubt that a doctor may have the same endurance so can we suppose that when David Payne states he was on the water for ‘a couple of hours’, was not windsurfing, as only he's just human.
In which case he sailed a Laser or Hobie.
The Laser Pico is designed for simplicity and can be crewed by 2 children or 1 adult so we can assume this is not the craft the doctors had an incident with.
So we are left with the Hobie, which is the craft for an experienced sailor and novice crew.
In that case, it would be said “we took out a Hobie or even Hobie cat” but the doctors tell us they ‘did watersports’. Rather vague don’t you think?
On Monday, we are told Fiona and David spent the morning on the beach, after dropping children off, sailing with another chap. It was cold. They wore short wetsuits and returned when it was time to pick up the children. So did they take their own kit?
According to statements nobody took any kit for watersports so where did they get these suits from?
I’m sure the watersports staff keep a check on who makes use of their equipment and they would only be given to customers. Lent only to those customers who have booked a craft, so if they have made a booking there would be a record and the staff would be requested to give statements to confirm this.
Dianne Webster says: “So afternoon activities wouldn’t start until they’d had their nap and that particular day Dave I know was windsurfing in the afternoon, I’ve just got a picture of him walking out of the sea in his wetsuit. Russell and Matt took out a boat because I remember Russell, who doesn’t know anything about sailing, had to rescue Matt.”
Where is there this photo of David Payne? And what did he do with his craft? Leave it in the water??? Normally you take/moor it where you took it from. Unless he didn’t take a craft out????
She continues: “Yeah, again I’ve got a photograph of them on the beach after that, so after the, after the girls had had their sleep we obviously went down to the beach and we all went down apart, well again Kate and Gerry, I think they were more into tennis than the beach, so I didn’t see, see them there that day. So there was myself, Fiona, Rachael, and Jane with all the children. We went down to the beach that day and just played around for a bit and then the men came in from their activities and we then went, because it was quite late, we decided rather than rush the children, to high tea at the Ocean Club. We’d just give them high tea in this beach restaurant that we’d been to before."
Is this the photo that Dianne says she takes this so unclear one? No time and no date on it and basically it's just ANY two men standing together in wetsuits.
So, according to Dianne, they go down to the beach, play around, Dianne takes pictures of David and of Russell and Matthew all in wetsuits, then the men come from the activities and all head for the Paraiso for high tea.
When does the WET/DRY/CHANGE OF CLOTHES happen in this fairytale?
And did they tell their RESCUE STORY at this point? It’s typical of sports enthusiasts to use the terminology of their sport and the onlookers not to do that.
None of the doctors name any of the craft they have purported to sail….why would that be? Quote from ROB. "I went out in the afternoon near to the beach I think possibly me and Matt may have kayaked Then later. I went out in the afternoon to the beach I was with Matt and as far as I can recall we went out kayaking”
Kayaking, in the "hesitant" form, is the closest we get to any watersports terminology.
The absence of statements from any of the staff seems incredible. It’s typical that watersports are closely monitored for safety reasons. People cannot take a craft out to sea without filling in forms. Whether booking forms, insurance disclaimers (presuming they have declared watersport activity on the holiday insurance form because it isn’t normally included) or health declarations and experience history.
Every client is assessed for capability and given weather information before they set out.
We are now presuming that the clients didn’t just turn up on the beach at an indeterminate time on the off chance of a sail with having to accommodate trips to the crèche to collect children. So they will have booked their sail at the Millenium restaurant where the watersports staff congregate each morning to take the daily bookings.
If the doctors have been at sea they would have been monitored, counted out, counted back in and watched during their time at sea so they didn’t go off course. The safety boat would be patrolling the outer perimeter and in radio contact with other staff able to instigate a rescue if things went wrong.
If a device on a craft had failed it would need to be reported to the staff. Repairs would be recorded but we still can’t refer to watersport staff statements….as there are none ….because they didn’t have contact with the group for watersports?
Mark Warner states: Fully Qualified Staff Not only will our fully qualified watersports instructors give you the very best tuition, they'll also keep a constant watch whilst you are out on the water. Their knowledge, together with the full range of safety equipment available, ensures that you're always in safe hands. Safety First We take every precaution to ensure that you're in safe hands and are supervised at all times whilst out on the water. We provide buoyancy aids and helmets and a full safety briefing on arrival.
So why were our doctors allowed to flounder in the water with no assistance? Can we conclude they were not in the water when they say they are? If not where were they?
None of them mention going back to the apartment, having a shower or changing out of wetsuits, or puting away the wet kit in their statements.
We are very precious about our wetsuits and make sure they don’t get hung up to dry with the ‘club suits’, those cheap suits no-one really wants to wear ….or steal.
Even if showers are available on the beach they are just to rinse off the salt water not to have a change into dry clothing.
They did in fact mention staying on the beach after ‘the incident’ and then going to the beach restaurant. We see them in the Paraiso CCTV footage without any bags they would have used to take dry clothing and toiletries to the beach, and have the wetsuits in to be taken back to the apartments.
ROB….he originally stated that he had windsurfing lessons on Sunday but changed that. "Sunday 29th April 2007 I had booked into water-sports on the Saturday but I don't think they operated on Sunday. I can't recall exactly what I did on what day but I had booked to have windsurfing lessons and to do a bit of sailing."
Why did he not know watersports are available EVERY day of the week, surely he would have been told when he ‘booked’ his Sunday windsurfing lesson if was closed for the day?
Can we conclude that none of them went on the water?
Now look again at the Paraiso CCTV, the group are seated shortly after this purported incident and Russell O Brien has collected his daughter, we see no indication of anyone who has been in the sea let alone had an accident and fallen off the …what was it…Hobie?
Well done, Sina J! And thank you!
ReplyDeleteA lot of food for thought here. I hope NOW people start to understand why I told them to LOOK again at the Paraiso pictures. So, so much information there. You speak of one that I didn't see: the bags. Wetsuits, especially when they're wet, and even when they're not, are rather big volume to transport, aren't they? THAT detail had escaped me, and does say so much...
Welcome aboard my friend, and congratulations!
For me, what hapenned to Madeleine, hapenned before May 3 and before the Cafe Paraiso. They had time to clean the situation with calm. The only think that went wrong and out of what they predicted was the reaction of GNR. They were doing everything on the grounds that the police will buy every single word and story they tell without blinking. Somebody sell to them the idea of a lazy and incompetent police( who sell them that idea must be living in PDL and be a foreigner, peraphs a British person). When they raise the alarm and see the reaction of GNR, the situation become out of their control, then the timeline on Maddie book hapenned and the unconsistencies on their statements started.
ReplyDeleteSome portuguese papers reported at the beginning that O'Brien use to do surf there(I'm not sure if they said in PDL or in Algarve) before and he had many friends related with Surf. then, there is another possibility... they could use a private boat or equipment to do whatever they want in the sea, including dumping Madeleine. But, absolutely not at that time, not before going to Cafe Paraiso. When they are at Cafe Paraiso they look more ready and prepared for the job they have to do later-RAISE THE ALARM AND CALL THE POLICE- this is why they all headed to a cafe with CCTV to be recorded and foolish the police. Without the Mccann's, because at that time they were griefing and dealing with all the shock related with what hapenned to Madeleine. Later, they had to appear to the police and play the roll they all planned.
There is missing characters in the saga. That characters could not be local people and could not live far away from PDL. Then for me become quite clear that the police have to go back to PDL and the surrounds and investigate the British and Holand comunnity that live there. At many points in the saga, the two countries become connected by the Mccann's. That is an important sign for any investigation. At many points, people living in PDL become connected with case-Murat, the Priests and all the friends that Kate so amazing said that she come to visit and thanks them. But the all Tapas have done everything to keep this characters out of the all story. They divert the attention to Moroccos instead of leaving the police alone to investigate the places near the crime scene. In case of a real abduction, the surrounds of the OC, the Algarve and the South of Spain must be places of interest. Any way, I don't believe on Madeleine dumped on the sea at that time. If so, there is no place for what the dogs find in the R. Scenic and dogs don't lie and cannot be manipulated. But the sea could be the vehicle to pass Madeleine into another house(the owner of the boat) even without him/her knowing what was going on. When he/she realise what was inside the bags, he gave the bag back to Kate and Gerry but had to kept his/her mouth close because we know how the intimidation of the Mccann's work...he/she could be easily accused of being the abductor.
You raise a good point, as usual, on your post Textusa. The cafe Paraiso is a very important piece of information, specially because has a CCTV and who went there went with purpose to be recorded on that particular day.
Amazing how the Tennis was brought in by golfer and watersports addicted.
Anon
ReplyDeleteJan 12, 2011 5:32:00 AM
If there's one thing that Sina J's post proves is that Maddie's death happened on the 3rd, and not in any day before.
For example, when you look at the Paraiso photos, it seems you see a group of people acting suspiciously, while I see a group of people relaxing at the end of the afternoon, with a beautiful view.
Again I disagree with you when you say the GNR's reaction was the only that they didn't expect. I think it was the only reaction that they got that fitted the intention. Umplanned reactions? Kate's for starters.
According to Clarence Mitchell "There is a wholly innocent explanation" for whatever whoever has found or will find in the future...
ReplyDeleteI think this might apply here: the guys have just forgotten to mention that AFTER their water sports they simply jogged back to their apartments, took a shower and put new clothes on and - jogged back to the beach. Because jogging is part of their daily routine they thought its not worthy to mention it...
If the water sports staff were not interviewed there are only 2 reasons.
ReplyDelete1 They didn't have anything to do with T9.
2. Their statements would be incriminating and so had to be avoided.
The staff know which it is and may speak out if asked now.
Anon @ 7.41pm
ReplyDeleteYou sound as if you KNOW!
Anon@ 8.37
ReplyDeleteThe water front staff KNOW which it is. The PJ KNOW too.
New evidence?
Agree with you Textusa, When I said I believe Maddie disapeared before May 3, I should say before the time they reported to the police on May 3. But I don't believe they dumped Madeleine on the sea on that day, unless they went to the deep sea and used stones to keep the body in. If so, how to explain what the dogs find in August?
ReplyDeleteWe know, the Atlantic is very cruel at keeping bodies inside. The Nephew of a portuguese football player was dragged under his family eyes, two years ago, and I think was never recovered despite all the search done with all methodes in the beach from where he disappeared.
What the dogs find in the car dismiss the idea of Madeleine in the sea on May 3, unless the Mccann's had already access to the R. Scenic before renting it and this is not a strange possibility. According to the statement of one of the persons that rented the car before them, he rented the car with a second driver who was M.W.( same name as kate Cousin who also become later with Gerry, the second driver for the same car).
The Puzzle has so many pieces, but I believe many are already under the police hands on the closed files and even if G. Amaral don't know where the body went, the Portuguese Attorney gerneral knows and everything was hide to protect the perpetrators. A shame.
I was just following in the news the last horrendous crime that is destroying again the image of Portugal- Carlos castro/ Renato Seabra. Many people in the comments are comparing the diplomatic and justice support gave to the Mccann's with what Portugal gave to Renato Seabra who confessed an horrendous crime but still unclear the motivations and which reasons exactely are under his travel to New York with C.castro. Definnetly the Mccann's will be always connected with most horrendous crimes in many ways. A Karma they have to carry forever. If they had confessed the crime, like Seabra, maybe they will got in Portugal a sentence with less then 5 years in prison (suspended) and the all case solved and fade by now. They choose to be in the news forever, connected with worsest crimes. Worse then that, by making that decision they condemn their other childs to the same karma. poor twins.
Hi Text, Another well thought out piece of analysis, this case will be solved and eventually the mccanns will be brought to justice - in the meantime we would just like to thank you for all the research and detail that you put into this case. Perhaps Maddie was kept in a container in a sea cove then later transported in their scenic. Most murders are usually very simple cases and statistics state 88% are carried out by people known to the victim. I wonder if the mccanns have any contact now with the rest of the tapas group, I think not! well done Tex on your brilliant, brilliant website.
ReplyDeleteWhat about if Maddie is already home RIP and they keep going to Portugal once in a while to distract you?
ReplyDeleteGetting back to Pat thoughts: "IF the McCanns were involved and IF Maddy's body was brought home, when this would have happened is another question. Unfortunately, only those inside the organization would (we hope) know the truth about the McCann's movements. For example, Gerry McCann returned to England on June 19, just four days after an exhaustive search for Madeleine was called off. This search was in an arid, desolate area (the kind of climate which might encourage the mummification of a body) near a town called Odeceixe. A letter from an unknown sender had stated she could be found there in a shallow grave."(was a fake letter or a sign to McCanns? I believe media was used to communicate between countries although people did got it, people didn't got a lot!) "Four days later, Gerry is on a plane home. I don't know if he took any luggage with him, anything more than a rucksack (which I don't know the size of). He only stayed for the day, purportedly to attend some meetings. He claims he had his wallet stolen while getting money from an ATM and later that evening, the wallet was mailed back to him. A rather peculiar story that I wonder might not be a cover for the reason he was late to his meetings; he ostensibly spent the time calling credit card companies to cancel his credit cards.
If I were the police investigator, I would follow up this lead. I would want to know what luggage Gerry took with him to England. I would try to see if there was any proof to the wallet theft story. I would find out if he had any "alone" time on the trip. I would find out if he made those phone calls to the credit card companies and if he really got money from an ATM. I would find out exactly where he was that day through any evidence of his movements (phone call tracking, receipts, witnesses, etc.). I would want to know if anyone met him, especially anyone who he could have transferred a package from one suitcase to another.
I would check all the McCann trips and look for possibly ways for them to transport a body away from Portugal. And, again, I would look for all possible places within Portugal or neighboring countries as possible places to hide or bury a body. I would check the possibility of a burial at sea.
If I were the Portuguese police, I would be following all leads, even those that lead away from the McCanns. It never hurts to be thorough. The point is to recover Madeleine, dead or alive, and bring justice to those that hurt her. In the end, it doesn't matter which theory is correct (except as an educational tool for future investigations). It only matters that the case is solved.
To poster 8:24, 15 Jan.
ReplyDeleteYou raise a good point- Madeleine already at home ( the body or the remains). The home could not mean exactely her parents house... Could be any other property belonging to the Mccann's, a relative, a friend etc. Some people in other blogs, including me, already raised that question. Gerry travelled in private jets and we don't know what was traveling by land. In Mccannfiles and other sites we can find some interesting information about 2 guys ( one died already in mysterious circumstances) that went to PDL supposedly to help searching Madeleine few days after she disappeared. What they have done there, why one got ride about his belongs in UK and why he came back with his personnality altered until he dies, is a Mystery. More or less at the same time, 2 other guys went to PDL, by land, driving the truck that went to PDL with a giant outdoor of Maddie. At the time, the Mccann's pass the idea that the outdoor was an offer from a company that got touched by the tragedy. Later was reported in Mccannfiles and other sites that the 2 guys were contacted by Maddie uncle ( the same that was connected with Fund) and the company was not having htalth finances to do such offer. The truck arrived to PDL in a day that the Mccann's went to Fatima or to the Vatican ( that could be a strategy to divert attenions from other places in Algarve, where the R. Scenic + the truck could be). I feel always very strange that truck. Was it shecked by he police and his way back to UK tracked down? I hope so, but he police was so busy with many clues delivered by he Mccann's that they could miss that one.
The Thief was also a strange epysode. According to the information available, was not reported to the police in UK and only Maddie antys came to the press to deliver more "Sh..." helping Gerry.
I agree with the last two comments that Maddie could have been returned to UK, I don't think Gerry would have risked taking her body on a plane but I often thought about those two guys and that inflatable, also it was strange that one of them died. The wallet episode was definitely a distraction to give Gerry time to do whatever he needed to do before going to his meetings he also said on that day that he attended a drunk or somebody in the road on his way back to the villa again it didn't really ring true, and I wonder perhaps Maddie was never placed in the scenic but towells or the like that she was wrapped up in beforehand and that is how the DNA got into the scenic the mccanns would have handled the towells and so the DNA was also on key fob, strange no DNA was found on Gerry, perhaps Kate handled the towell or shower curtain placed it in car and inadvertantly got the DNA on her clothes. The inflatable would never be checked by borders nobody would think a body could be hidden in it, at the time everyone was sympathetic towards the mccanns, so they would easily have gotten away with it. I've said this before but I truly can't believe nothing is done about this pair of criminals.
ReplyDeleteReading Diana Websters statement she states'..and we all went down apart, well again Kate and Gerry' were absent she says ' well again ' so presumably Kate and Gerry didn't mix with the rest of the group as often as they gave the impression they did or is she distancing herself from them?, Clarance also said 'they are all very much into each other' was he prompted by Gerry tosay that? but looking at the occasions Kate and Gerry were not with the others it is possible Gerry manipulated the abduction theory around them, drew them into it, hence Jane Tanners ridiculous statements and all the inconsistencies..but why do they not speak up against him what are they afraid of..and remember they gave the money they sued the Express Newspaper Group back to the mccanns because they knew it was blood money and didn't want to be involved with it, I think they are afraid of losing their homes and jobs and probably wish they had never met Gerald Mccann & Co. What cowards they all are.
ReplyDeleteTo post 11:28, 15 Jan.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe the ADN of Maddie in the R. Scenic came from towels or other contamination. An issue that is less discussed but still a key piece to solve that case was the Maddie hair find on the car that went to the FSS lab to be checked if was from a dead or an alive Madeleine with drugs to sedate her, or without. The unconclusive repport that came from the FSS, just ignored the hair. According to PJ, the samples of the hair were in good condition with roots to be analised.
I'm not surprised by the absence of Maddie ADN on Gerry clothes. After May 3, his job was diverting the police and the journalists from important places and he got plenty of opportunities to get ride of his clothes without raising suspiction. He spend the time traveling while Kate was in Portugal. Kate was not the second driver for the R. Scenic. Have the belongs of the second driver been checked for Madeleine ADN? Kate was in portugal but the twins were under the care of the OC creche or under the care of relatives. Why? Where was Kate when the twins were under the care of somebody else? and with who, if she was not driving?